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agassizii or cacatuoides (or borelli)

vertigo

Member
Messages
31
I transferred my fish from a 40g to a 90g. I can finally try Appistos. I've never seen one in person.

water pH: 6.9 DgH:6.5 temp:78.4-80.8 (timered). Stock 4 bleeding heart tetras, 1 leopard gourami, 6 skirt tetra (new), 6 zebra loaches. 1 female pearly gourami.

1) Too warm for Borrelii.
2)zebra loaches zip along all regions of the tank, not shy, very playful, swim into the other fish constantly. I had 3 Bolivian rams that were terrified of them, had to be removed.
...Are Appistos les timid than rams?
3) which apisto species is hardier/better suited for my setup
 

MacZ

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6 zebra loaches
Sorry to say, that means dwarf cichlids sadly are not going to work in your setup.

Timidness is a matter of individual character, but botiid loaches (please click this green link) of all genera in the group are not suitable with any dwarf cichlid. They are too active, outweigh most of the cichlids and the sharp thorn under their eyes can rip an Apistogramma open in the blink of an eye.
 

vertigo

Member
Messages
31
Sorry to say, that means dwarf cichlids sadly are not going to work in your setup.

Timidness is a matter of individual character, but botiid loaches (please click this green link) of all genera in the group are not suitable with any dwarf cichlid. They are too active, outweigh most of the cichlids and the sharp thorn under their eyes can rip an Apistogramma open in the blink of an eye.
These are Botia almorhae , max out at 2 inches (mine are 5-6y/o, smallest is under 1.25 inches biggest is dense but a little under 2" , they're supposed to be peaceful, just very active. Still no good?
 

MacZ

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I know the species. Still no good, sorry. It's an accident waiting to happen.

Also these fish grow to 6.5, sometimes 7 centimeters easily. I have seen specimens bigger than that.
 
Last edited:

anewbie

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Messages
1,464
Sorry to say, that means dwarf cichlids sadly are not going to work in your setup.

Timidness is a matter of individual character, but botiid loaches (please click this green link) of all genera in the group are not suitable with any dwarf cichlid. They are too active, outweigh most of the cichlids and the sharp thorn under their eyes can rip an Apistogramma open in the blink of an eye.
I've kept zebra loaches (not sure if you have); the zebra loaches are larger than some apisto but extremely timid and shy and they may very well work with dwarf cichild. I know they never bothered my angels and my angels could breed and raise free swimming fry with them in the aquarium (I realize angels are not the same since they occupy a higher portion of the aquarium - though zebra loaches are not pinned to the bottom). While it might not work I wouldn't rule it out.

Generally speaking my zebra loaches are around 2 1/2 maybe inches. I'd rather put zebra loaches with a dwarf cichild than - for example - dwarf loaches, which are smaller, but more obnoxious (not vicious just extremely active and create a bit of a ruckus day and night). I would not attempt to keep dwarf cichild with yoyo which are both larger than zebra and more assertive.

I can't say definitely it would work since i've not kept them with dwarf cichild (though i did have a few gbr in the aquarium for a year - they are not exactly as comparable to most species of apisto as they are willing to hang a bit higher).
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
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1,464
These are Botia almorhae , max out at 2 inches (mine are 5-6y/o, smallest is under 1.25 inches biggest is dense but a little under 2" , they're supposed to be peaceful, just very active. Still no good?
You are not describing zebra loaches; but dwarf loaches; Ambastaia sidthimunki. Zebra loaches are larger than 2 inches (not much); zebra loaches are Botia striata.
 

vertigo

Member
Messages
31
I've kept zebra loaches (not sure if you have); the zebra loaches are larger than some apisto but extremely timid and shy and they may very well work with dwarf cichild. I know they never bothered my angels and my angels could breed and raise free swimming fry with them in the aquarium (I realize angels are not the same since they occupy a higher portion of the aquarium - though zebra loaches are not pinned to the bottom). While it might not work I wouldn't rule it out.

Generally speaking my zebra loaches are around 2 1/2 maybe inches. I'd rather put zebra loaches with a dwarf cichild than - for example - dwarf loaches, which are smaller, but more obnoxious (not vicious just extremely active and create a bit of a ruckus day and night). I would not attempt to keep dwarf cichild with yoyo which are both larger than zebra and more assertive.

I can't say definitely it would work since i've not kept them with dwarf cichild (though i did have a few gbr in the aquarium for a year - they are not exactly as comparable to most species of apisto as they are willing to hang a bit higher).
These were sold as golden zebra loaches, pretty sure they're yo yo's
 

anewbie

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1,464
These were sold as golden zebra loaches, pretty sure they're yo yo's
yoyo get quite large - as much as 7 inches - i've had mine for 4 years and they are around 5 to 5 1/2 inches long. They are with the zebra nad clown loaches - there are 4 of 5 species (golden zebra, yoyo, pakistan, ...) that look very similar when young and as they age the pattern gets more distinct and it is easier to identify them. yoyo for example have 3 distinct stages of pattern (young, around 1ish year, adult). However i thought you said yours max out at 2 inches and none of these stay that small; or perhaps you meant they are currently 2 inches - and if so they will grow larger and their behavior will change as they age. Also for whatever reason nearly all gold zebra i have owned have eventually jumped out of the aquarium - not a lot of samples - maybe 6 - but none of the others have done such - just the gold zebras...
 

vertigo

Member
Messages
31
yoyo get quite large - as much as 7 inches - i've had mine for 4 years and they are around 5 to 5 1/2 inches long. They are with the zebra nad clown loaches - there are 4 of 5 species (golden zebra, yoyo, pakistan, ...) that look very similar when young and as they age the pattern gets more distinct and it is easier to identify them. yoyo for example have 3 distinct stages of pattern (young, around 1ish year, adult). However i thought you said yours max out at 2 inches and none of these stay that small; or perhaps you meant they are currently 2 inches - and if so they will grow larger and their behavior will change as they age. Also for whatever reason nearly all gold zebra i have owned have eventually jumped out of the aquarium - not a lot of samples - maybe 6 - but none of the others have done such - just the gold zebras...
Mine are nearly 6 years old, v shaped tail, pattern likes more like X's than YO. This is the biggest/fattest one (and I was wrong, he's under 2.5" definitely over 2" long)
 

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vertigo

Member
Messages
31
I know the species. Still no good, sorry. It's an accident waiting to happen.

Also these fish grow to 6.5, sometimes 7 centimeters easily. I have seen specimens bigger than that.

My guess is that you will never see an apisto with so many active loaches on the bottom.
My weirdo loaches don't hang out at the bottom, they're obnoxiously everywhere. But point taken.

I figured appistos were on the more aggressive end of the "friendly community fish" spectrum. The female pearl gourami is the "boss" of the tank, my goal was to match her temperament didn't think loaches were even an issue.
 

anewbie

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1,464
It depends on the species of apisto; i find my D50 for example are extremely bold and show no fear of pretty much anything (this is both good and bad); most are fairly shy and will behave badly in a tank with tankmates that are too active.
 

Mike Wise

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It depends on the species of apisto; i find my D50 for example are extremely bold and show no fear of pretty much anything (this is both good and bad); most are fairly shy and will behave badly in a tank with tankmates that are too active.
Just curious; what other fish are in this tank?
 

anewbie

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1,464
Just curious; what other fish are in this tank?
RIght now; some bn; panda gara (which are bit noisy and annoying); otto; guppies; kubota rasbora; femal nijjensi (removed her to a 29 as she was fighting with the D50); cherry barbs, pygmy cory; orange laser cory. It is a bit of a mismash for now. I had two lemon bn and they were breeding the past year; so i managed to catch the female and remove her but there are still some smaller ones i missed and the male. It is a bit heavily dense planted so hard to find everything not near the front.
-
I'll be moving the D50 to a dedicated 29 next month after i move. I wouldn't have said anything but the panda gara are not unlike the described loaches in their behavior. The D50 seem to 'tolerate' them. Also the D50 show no fear of me unlike some of my other species in other aquariums which are easily startled or react negatively when i do maint. on the aquarium. I've had the a. pucallpaensis for over a year now and the male still hides every-time i enter the the room.
 

vertigo

Member
Messages
31
I dug through my dozens of documents and screen shots from 2018.
My stock list was crowd sourced from multiple forums. Appistos awere on my wish lif

3 loaches were from Petco in Jun "golden zebra loach" 3 from a LFS in Aug. "Botia histrionica" .
Lots of forum posts back then recommended golden zebras as ideal tank mates for Appistogramma and Bolivian Rams. Opinion on that seems to have changed quite a bit over the past few years.
 

anewbie

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1,464
What i don't understand is the size; golden zebra are a little smaller than yoyo but larger than zebra; so 4-5 inch range. I don't get why they are 2 inch if you had them for several years; that's not a sex thing that is a different species.
 

Mike Wise

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I don't know how to say this nicely. ANYONE can say ANYTHING - true or not - on the internet. Professionally written and edited books and papers are much more dependable.
 

MacZ

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3,180
Location
Germany
I don't know how to say this nicely. ANYONE can say ANYTHING - true or not - on the internet. Professionally written and edited books and papers are much more dependable.
I agree, and there is no book I can think of that would advise to combine loaches and Apistogramma.
 

vertigo

Member
Messages
31
What i don't understand is the size; golden zebra are a little smaller than yoyo but larger than zebra; so 4-5 inch range. I don't get why they are 2 inch if you had them for several years; that's not a sex thing that is a different species.
The loaches are a mystery. I've spent hours going through the less obvious sources/videos to figure it out. There are recurring theories on seriously fish and monster fish keepers multiple species of what's called a Golden Zebra Loach or a hybrid species being traded. Mine look wildly different than wild caught GZ Loaches. They won't ever reach 4".
The tiny one was sickly when I got it, we named him Sneezy when we got him. He's very small, the only one that looks like botia histrionica.
My own personal theory, most fish sold at every Petco/PetSmart are always max out at smaller side of average, and die of old age faster. Would make sense that bulk suppliers selectively breed smaller, faster maturing species. None of the fish I've gotten from there never passed the lower end of "adult size". My leopard gourami is 4", Bleeding Heart Tetra's are all under 2.5". All 5y/o like the loaches.
 

MacZ

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Location
Germany
None of the fish I've gotten from there never passed the lower end of "adult size". My leopard gourami is 4", Bleeding Heart Tetra's are all under 2.5". All 5y/o like the loaches.
About the size of the loaches: They grow quite slowly. The other fish: not a matter of breed but of food and growout conditions. Too few waterchanges during growout, too cold temperatures, food rich in energy and protein but lacking other nutrients... But there are barely any breeding efforts targeting size under average. That's because while you can quickly find out whether an animal will exceed the average size but it takes ages to see a size average not being reached at all.
The mortality rates from big box store fish are just... That is 99% due to subpar conditions at cheap breeders, wholesalers and retailers. And not to forget... and no, no-one present is implied, sometimes the employees in such stores might want to do a better job as animal handlers and say no to selling fish to people that probably shouldn't keep animals at all.
 

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