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45 gallons A. Cacatuoide w/ Pearl Gouramis & Corydoras

Patate

New Member
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11
Hi guys, I'm new here!

I'm currently setting up a 46 Gallon tall (36 x 12, 24T) and I plan on having 3-4 Pearl Gouramis, and I was thinking of having Corydoras (I have 7 peperred in another tanks, and 3 Sterbai. I was thinking I could either put the 8 peppered, or up the Sterbai to 7 or more and put them there), and a school of schooling tetras or Rasboras (most probably Cardinal Tetras).

My girlfriend and I really like A. Cacatuoides, but from asking on different forums we're understanding that Apistos are pretty fierce when breeding, and that it could be deadly for Corys since they aren't smart enough to understand the signal and they keep coming back (and end up with missing eyes and such).

So yeah, I saw different possible solutions and was wondering what you thought of them :

- Getting Pigmy Corydoras instead, since they behave more like tetras and don't try to eat the fry (but would they be so small that the Pearl would see them as snacks ?)

- Getting males of different species of Apisto, in order to prevent breeding/mating aggression

- Getting a single Apisto, and maybe put a single Keyhole cichlid (but I've been told having 2 types of cichlids would increase the chances of them beating up the Pearl Gouramis)

If I go with solution 2, (3 single Apistos of different species) would they fight for territory in a different way ? Would it be better to have 3 males of the same species of Apisto, or it would be better a male of each different species ?

Would some species be better than others, and what would be the best amount ?

Would the three Apistos gang up on the Pearl Gouramis ? Or the opposite : if the Pearl Gouramis get babies, would they provoke the Apistos and then get beaten up in retaliation ?

If you have other suggestions too, I'm open to them all!

Thanks !
 

Mike Wise

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Personally I would go with 1 apisto and the Keyhole. They live in different parts of tank decor (apisto among cover; Keyhole in more open locations when feeling safe). Your Pearls will live in the upper part of a rather tall tank, so there should be little interaction between them and the cichlids.
 

Patate

New Member
Messages
11
Personally I would go with 1 apisto and the Keyhole. They live in different parts of tank decor (apisto among cover; Keyhole in more open locations when feeling safe). Your Pearls will live in the upper part of a rather tall tank, so there should be little interaction between them and the cichlids.
Thanks ! Would it still work if we keep the corys and a school of small fish ?
 

Mike Wise

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Yes. With no way of breeding the apisto is not as interested in holding a territory. There may be some chasing, especially at dinner time, but it is not overly aggressive.
 

Patate

New Member
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11
Thanks! So most semi-aggressive cichlids are only aggressive during pairing/mating (and feeding) what would be the max amount before it gets ugly ?

By that, I don't mean more than one male Apistos, as I read in another thread this could be disastrous even in a 48, but more like : 1 single Apisto, 1 single Bolivian Ram, 1 keyhole (or something similar, maybe 2x male Rams, or 2 male Keyholes, or even a pair or trio of Keyhole if they'd be peaceful enough)

Also, in what order should they be introduced if I get more than one type of Cichlids ?

I know I should start with schoolers and corys first, then in the end put the most territorial (Apisto ? Ram ?), but in between I'm not sure (Pearl and Keyhole are both peaceful, but KH is cichlid but Pearl could have a pair)

I already have two males Rams in another tanks that I could move in the 45 gallons with them, if doable, but they're still small like 1—1.5 inch and they havent shown any territoriality behavior yet and they even sometimes swim togheter in a 20 gallon community tank.

So if they'd fit, what order should I introduce them all, keeping in mind that it might not be possible for me to find all the fish I want on the same day.

Also, should I buy Pearls and Keyhole(s) that are already bigger than the Apistos and/or the Ram(s) ?

Thanks again!

I'm also open to suggestion for some interesting schooling fish. I get suggestions about Cardinals and Harlequin Rasboras pretty often, but I'd be happy to get new ideas of nice non-nipping friends!

Also, should I be better with one bigger school , or 2 small schools could work too ?
 

Mike Wise

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Please, don't get carried away! The more cichlids - or other territorial species - you put together the more problems with aggression you will have. This is a community tank and follow normal rules for adding fish to a community: peaceful species first, others afterwards. Also the most important part of setting up any community is: quarantine all fish for the community before adding to the tank.
 

Patate

New Member
Messages
11
Please, don't get carried away! The more cichlids - or other territorial species - you put together the more problems with aggression you will have. This is a community tank and follow normal rules for adding fish to a community: peaceful species first, others afterwards. Also the most important part of setting up any community is: quarantine all fish for the community before adding to the tank.

Okay sorry I think Indeed got carried away lol So you believe the Bolivian Rams would be too much right ? Or it's the trio of Keyhole Cichlids instead of a single one ? Maybe I should stick to the 3 Pearl Gouramis plus either a single apisto OR a single keyhole OR a single Bolivian Ram.

I'd sure like to put more without getting much aggression, and I know the more I add the more risky it becomes, but I was wondering at what amount/combination the limit between reasonable and "that's a bad idea" would be in order to not cross it

I have three or four 10 gallons opaque buckets with extra sponge filters and heaters that could serve as emergency hospital tanks, but let's say I'd be happy if I never had to used them!
 

Rycraft

New Member
Messages
25
Okay sorry I think Indeed got carried away lol So you believe the Bolivian Rams would be too much right ? Or it's the trio of Keyhole Cichlids instead of a single one ? Maybe I should stick to the 3 Pearl Gouramis plus either a single apisto OR a single keyhole OR a single Bolivian Ram.

I'd sure like to put more without getting much aggression, and I know the more I add the more risky it becomes, but I was wondering at what amount/combination the limit between reasonable and "that's a bad idea" would be in order to not cross it

I have three or four 10 gallons opaque buckets with extra sponge filters and heaters that could serve as emergency hospital tanks, but let's say I'd be happy if I never had to used them!
To me it sounds like you're just asking for trouble with these stocking choices. You also mention it's a 'tall' tank. Horizontal swim space is preferred for most fish. By not having a longer tank you are just setting all these fish up for failure. The cichlids will likely get aggressive with the Corys as they inhabit much of the same area and with a lack of horizontal swim space you will likely have dust ups.
I think understocked tanks are always the best way to go. The fish will feel safer and probably exhibit more natural behavior since they aren't constantly chasing or being chased. Even though ciclids will be the ones doing the chasing it can still be stressful for them if they feel they have to constantly defend territory. (obviously schooling fish should be kept in groups, just saying you don't need 10 different species of fish in a tank where everyone is swimming on top of each other)
 

Patate

New Member
Messages
11
Try what you want. If something goes wrong, you only have yourself to blame. All I did was just give you my 45+ years of experience keeping all sorts of dwarf cichlids.
I think you misread the tone of my reply to you : I wasn't arguing or distrusting what you said. I truly appreciate your answers and advices and I trust them.

I know I tend to ask "okay but then could I add this one and this one", but when I do it's not because I distrust your advice, it's just that I'm over-enthousiastic but if you reply that I shouldn't, I will not do it.

I know a lot of people here ask questions and when they get answers they argue against them saying it makes no sense like they know everything already. It's not my case at all, I know that I know nothing.
 
Last edited:

Patate

New Member
Messages
11
To me it sounds like you're just asking for trouble with these stocking choices. You also mention it's a 'tall' tank. Horizontal swim space is preferred for most fish. By not having a longer tank you are just setting all these fish up for failure. The cichlids will likely get aggressive with the Corys as they inhabit much of the same area and with a lack of horizontal swim space you will likely have dust ups.
I think understocked tanks are always the best way to go. The fish will feel safer and probably exhibit more natural behavior since they aren't constantly chasing or being chased. Even though ciclids will be the ones doing the chasing it can still be stressful for them if they feel they have to constantly defend territory. (obviously schooling fish should be kept in groups, just saying you don't need 10 different species of fish in a tank where everyone is swimming on top of each other)

I understand what you mean, and I know my bottom area is limiting me. So far I only have two 36x12 aquariums available (19t and 24t) and this is preventing me all sort of stockings.

A friend suggested me to remove the Rams and the corys from my 20 gallon, put 1x Apisto there (instead of the 45) with the Glo Tetras (and no corys) and then for my 45 only go with the Pearls, the 2 male Rams, the corys and some schoolers (and that maybe a keyhole could live happily with them but I think only the Rams would be better)

I was thinking this could be a better stocking idea since the Apisto would be the only cichlid in the 20 gal, without any Corys

And in the 45 the Pearl Gouramis would mostly stay in the top half, and at the bottom it would be corys with 2x Rams Wich are considered more peaceful than Apisto, and they could each get a 18x12 territory for themselves if I block all lines of sight.

Do you think this could be a better stocking ?
Or is it still very risky ?
 

Rycraft

New Member
Messages
25
I think the Pearls with the Corys and Rams should be fine. I'd be hesitant to do more than 3 Pearls though because 36" still might be a bit short for 3 unless it's like 1 male and 2 females. If you have a lot of floating plants for cover 3 should be fine though.
I think some people get hung up on gallons for the size but overall foot print of the tank makes a much bigger difference in my opinion. Longer is always going to be better. Best of luck! Love those pearl gouramis. Such beautiful fish.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
I know I tend to ask "okay but then could I add this one and this one", but when I do it's not because I distrust your advice, it's just that I'm over-enthousiastic but if you reply that I shouldn't, I will not do it.

No offense, I would have likely reacted just like Mike.
The thing is that most hobbyists have made the experience that when over-enthusiastic people start to tweak and turn things so they can fit in as many species as possible they will in the end just not listen and take any "You could..."-statement as a green light for their plan, even if the sentence continues with a "...but".
I myself would at some point likely say I don't negotiate things like that. I rather explain contexts and give examples, so you can decide for yourself and don't have to ask for each little change or "if..."-question.

So, I agree with Mike and Rycraft, lower numbers of fish and lower stocking density according to the footprint of the tank are usually the best way. You can try with less species and see how it works out. You still have the option to add more species after some months of observation or switch one for another.
A mix of strong-charactered fishes as you picked will end in a lot of stress for them and when the stocking density takes away any safe spots for them they get stressed and stressed fish get sick. Many people underestimate the stress a community tank (fish from different places/environments) can put on the fish if the community consists of a poorly picked range of species. Often aggression and chasing is what people want to avoid, but it can be just the lack of hiding spots that makes fish sitting ducks for the viewer and the other fish that gives them enough stress. Same goes for stocking density.

If you want certain fish, it is more reasonable to pick species as accompaniment like one centerpiece species (looking at the gourami) with the rasboras (which are from the same region of the world) and one species of bottom dweller. The classic one species per region in the water column. You can spice that up with chosing a bottom dweller also from the same region and make it a biotope. Just as a probably more successful idea.

And otherwise: www.seriouslyfish.com

There you get useful info on most fish that is agreeable or given with a source like the scientific description the species and their ecology.
 

Patate

New Member
Messages
11
I think the Pearls with the Corys and Rams should be fine. I'd be hesitant to do more than 3 Pearls though because 36" still might be a bit short for 3 unless it's like 1 male and 2 females. If you have a lot of floating plantscover 3 should be fine though.
I think some people get hung up on gallons for the size but overall foot print of the tank makes a much bigger difference in my opinion. Longer is always going to be better. Best of luck! Love those pearl gouramis. Such beautiful fish.
Okay, I will not get more than 3 Pearl Gouramis (1M-2F). I plan of having a lot of floating plants with long roots and also large driftwoods that goes to the surface.

Yeah when cichlids are involved, the amount of gallons has little effect. The only upside I see here on having a tall one would be that the Pearl Gouramis will less be likely to be in the Bolivian Ram's way or territory since they stay higher I'm the tank and the height allows them more wiggle room there.

With the same footprint, I would not have felt comfortable with PG if the aquarium height was lower.

And thanks for your reply about the 2 Rams with the PG. If you didn't mention the Keyhole, is it because you would recommand against ?
 

Patate

New Member
Messages
11
No offense, I would have likely reacted just like Mike.
The thing is that most hobbyists have made the experience that when over-enthusiastic people start to tweak and turn things so they can fit in as many species as possible they will in the end just not listen and take any "You could..."-statement as a green light for their plan, even if the sentence continues with a "...but".
I myself would at some point likely say I don't negotiate things like that. I rather explain contexts and give examples, so you can decide for yourself and don't have to ask for each little change or "if..."-question.

So, I agree with Mike and Rycraft, lower numbers of fish and lower stocking density according to the footprint of the tank are usually the best way. You can try with less species and see how it works out. You still have the option to add more species after some months of observation or switch one for another.
A mix of strong-charactered fishes as you picked will end in a lot of stress for them and when the stocking density takes away any safe spots for them they get stressed and stressed fish get sick. Many people underestimate the stress a community tank (fish from different places/environments) can put on the fish if the community consists of a poorly picked range of species. Often aggression and chasing is what people want to avoid, but it can be just the lack of hiding spots that makes fish sitting ducks for the viewer and the other fish that gives them enough stress. Same goes for stocking density.

If you want certain fish, it is more reasonable to pick species as accompaniment like one centerpiece species (looking at the gourami) with the rasboras (which are from the same region of the world) and one species of bottom dweller. The classic one species per region in the water column. You can spice that up with chosing a bottom dweller also from the same region and make it a biotope. Just as a probably more successful idea.

And otherwise: www.seriouslyfish.com

There you get useful info on most fish that is agreeable or given with a source like the scientific description the species and their ecology.
Thanks for the explanation and the advice on how to go slowly and study the tank for months before adding others.

I think you replied while I was replying to Rycraft, because I just saw your message afterwards.

I understand what you mean about enthousiast people jumping on the first "yeah I guess you c-could but ..." as a green light though. But when I get a suggestion that goes against what others tell me I think to ask more info.

For example my friend who told me I could put the PG with schoolers and corys and 2 Rams and fit a Keyhole in it, I ended up asking here what you guys thought about that advice instead of blindly accepting what my friend said, even if it was closer to what I'd like!
 

Patate

New Member
Messages
11
Personally I would drop the pearl gourami and go with sparkling gourami. Things just work out better with small fishes.
I agree it would be easier, but it's a whole different look and vibe.

But I would like the Pearl Gouramis to be the main fish in this tank and I'm looking for appropriate tank mates for them as they're the fish that interest me the most for this project.

I don't mind dropping cichlids that wouldn't be compatible with them, but I truly want to build this community around those Pearls.
 

Rycraft

New Member
Messages
25
Okay, I will not get more than 3 Pearl Gouramis (1M-2F). I plan of having a lot of floating plants with long roots and also large driftwoods that goes to the surface.

Yeah when cichlids are involved, the amount of gallons has little effect. The only upside I see here on having a tall one would be that the Pearl Gouramis will less be likely to be in the Bolivian Ram's way or territory since they stay higher I'm the tank and the height allows them more wiggle room there.

With the same footprint, I would not have felt comfortable with PG if the aquarium height was lower.

And thanks for your reply about the 2 Rams with the PG. If you didn't mention the Keyhole, is it because you would recommand against ?
I have never kept two different types of cichlids in the same tank. So I don't want to give bad advise on that.
 

Rycraft

New Member
Messages
25
I agree it would be easier, but it's a whole different look and vibe.

But I would like the Pearl Gouramis to be the main fish in this tank and I'm looking for appropriate tank mates for them as they're the fish that interest me the most for this project.

I don't mind dropping cichlids that wouldn't be compatible with them, but I truly want to build this community around those Pearls.
You could do the pearls with a nice size school of rasboras then some smaller loaches to inhabit the bottom like Kuhli loaches. Then you're getting fish all from the same region and those Pearls will really stand out as the center piece.
 

Patate

New Member
Messages
11
You could do the pearls with a nice size school of rasboras then some smaller loaches to inhabit the bottom like Kuhli loaches. Then you're getting fish all from the same region and those Pearls will really stand out as the center piece.
It's true that the khulies could be a nice idea!
 

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