29 Gal Amazon Biotope 'Blackwater Bog'

[Kaie]

For starters i wanted to say HI.... this is just the forum i was looking for!

So i got a hand-me-down 29gal from a friend . Pondered for a few days about what i wanted to put in it.Then... I remembered about German and Bolivian Rams! While researching rams i came across tons of sweet info about these fish and other 'blackwater' fishes. I WAS SOLD.

So heres what im thinking... Authentic Blackwater Biotop... Tannins and all.

EQUIPMENT
Tank: 29Gal
Heater: 1x Jager 300w
Filter: AC 70 w/ Pre-filters, bulk mechanical filter, Bag of Seachem Matrix, and bag of peat moss. [I might not use this filter as everything i read about the flora and fauna I've choose likes to still water. These filters seem to flow A LOT. I would rather find a canister and 'diffuse' the output with a PVC with holes drilled in it.
Co2: Not sure about the need?
Lighting: Not much.

SUBSTRATE
#30 Silica Sand from Home Depot = $8.00/100lbs

HARDSCAPE
Lots of natural bogwood, leaves, bark?, and rocks.

FAUNA
Top
Silver Hatchet [Gasteropelecus sternicla]: 10-12 -- They tend to do better in larger groups.
Middle/Low
German Blue Ram: AT LEAST 1 pair.
Middle
Tetras: Haven't settled on variety or amount. At least 15-20. I want a school.
Bottom
Cories: Also haven't settled on variety or amount.


Seems like a lot of fish but they will all have their place and filter will handle bioload.

FLORA
Depending on availability...
Amazon Sword [Echinodorus amazonicus]
Star Grass [Heteranthera zosterifolia]
Coontail [Ceratophyllum demersum]
Tape grass [Jungle Vallisneria]
Green Cabomba

IDEAL PARAMETERS
pH: 6.0
Temp: 82F

CHEMICALS AND ADDITIVES
Seachem American Cichlid Salt
Kent Marine Black Water Expert
Ferts: ?

PLAN
So essentially my plan is to cycle the tank [Obviously] with straight unconditioned tap water and a whole filter [AC70] that is in my Oscar set up. Then add the substrate. decor, and plants. Run for awhile so the plants can grow then add the Hatchets. Wait a week, add the Tetras. Wait a few weeks, add the cories. THEN if everything is going good for a few weeks add my cichlids.


I'm open to comments, suggestions, constructive criticism, or great ideas or places to find some of this stuff.
opcorn:

 

[Kaie]

snap.. i think i posted this in the wrong place.

 

[slimbolen99]

I'd go with a single pair of rams...whether that be bolivian or GBR. Anything more is inviting trouble, IMO. I think your plan is great though! You did a nice job of separating the top, middle, and bottom layers of the tank. I'd also nix the salt. I don't believe that will add any benefit to a softwater setup.

If you wanted to do something like apistos, you might be able to get away with a M/F/F trio if there are tons of hiding places.

Good luck! Be sure to take some pics of your progress and post them up! Welcome to the forum.

 

[Kaie]

I'd go with a single pair of rams...whether that be bolivian or GBR. Anything more is inviting trouble, IMO. I think your plan is great though! You did a nice job of separating the top, middle, and bottom layers of the tank. I'd also nix the salt. I don't believe that will add any benefit to a softwater setup.

If you wanted to do something like apistos, you might be able to get away with a M/F/F trio if there are tons of hiding places.

Good luck! Be sure to take some pics of your progress and post them up! Welcome to the forum.

Yeah... from what i read 'official' about rams is they are VERY docile. But, people who actually own them make them out to be almost as aggressive towards each other as Mbuna.

Even if its salt with the chemical make up specific to the Amazon watershed?

How do you feel about the other types of dwarf cichlids with the rams? Whether it be the cockatoo, green, or double reds?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Plants are good choices and I wouldn't worry about the filter flow, but I think that people are suggesting is that it is just too many fish.
Have You seen ApistoBob's web site? <http://dwarfcichlid.com/index.php> Bob is a member and it is full of good information.

Personally I wouldn't keep Rams with any other fish, as they like warm water and are hopeless parents. If you do keep most Apistos at warm temperatures their live is shortened. You could keep a pair of Bolivian Rams (although they are hard to sex as sub-adults) and a pair/trio of Apistos.

I also wouldn't keep Cories as there will be friction between them and the cichlids. Same applies to the Tetras, you need to choose species which aren't too bottom orientated. If you do want Tetras "Black Neons" work quite well.

Do you know what your water is like? if it is very hard water you won't be able to soften it with tannins, very hard water is unsuitable for all Apistos, as all the water in S. America is very salt(s) poor. Unless the water is very hard A. cacatuoides should be all right, if it is a bit softer A. macmasteri, A. hongsloi or A. agassizi become possible.

If it was my tank, I'd start with a group of young Apistogramma of one species (let's say either A. cacatuoides or A. agassizi), and as they become sexable I'd whittle it down to one male and any number of females, greater than 2.

With my harem I'd keep just a shoal of Black Neon Tetras, Hatchets or Pencil fish. If you keep Hatchets you really need some suitable live food for them, vestigial winged fruit flies are best. I'm a great believer in live food all around actually.

cheers Darrel

 

[Mike Wise]

I have no problems with your ideas (except cichlid population density). Blackwater biotopes, however, are nothing like what you are planning. Most have no living plants at all, only a layer of dead leaves and wood. In addition, none of the species of Rams is truly a blackwater species. These fish come from seasonally variable biotopes where the water can be anything from white- to clearwater. They certainly don't need/appreciate water with low acidity or large quantities of tanins. Your planned tank would be excellent as a whitewater biotope, with lots of plants.

 

[Kaie]

Hi all,
Plants are good choices and I wouldn't worry about the filter flow, but I think that people are suggesting is that it is just too many fish.
Have You seen ApistoBob's web site? <http://dwarfcichlid.com/index.php> Bob is a member and it is full of good information.

Personally I wouldn't keep Rams with any other fish, as they like warm water and are hopeless parents. If you do keep most Apistos at warm temperatures their live is shortened. You could keep a pair of Bolivian Rams (although they are hard to sex as sub-adults) and a pair/trio of Apistos.

I also wouldn't keep Cories as there will be friction between them and the cichlids. Same applies to the Tetras, you need to choose species which aren't too bottom orientated. If you do want Tetras "Black Neons" work quite well.

Do you know what your water is like? if it is very hard water you won't be able to soften it with tannins, very hard water is unsuitable for all Apistos, as all the water in S. America is very salt(s) poor. Unless the water is very hard A. cacatuoides should be all right, if it is a bit softer A. macmasteri, A. hongsloi or A. agassizi become possible.

If it was my tank, I'd start with a group of young Apistogramma of one species (let's say either A. cacatuoides or A. agassizi), and as they become sexable I'd whittle it down to one male and any number of females, greater than 2.

With my harem I'd keep just a shoal of Black Neon Tetras, Hatchets or Pencil fish. If you keep Hatchets you really need some suitable live food for them, vestigial winged fruit flies are best. I'm a great believer in live food all around actually.

cheers Darrel

I will have to check out Bob's info, thanks for passing it along.

I can def. cut back on the cichlid population.

The other fish i choose because they all come from the same region as well has a very docile temperament. As well as similar water perimeters.

My water is around 7.0-7.2.

I like your suggestions about doing the Apisto group.

I also agree with live foods. All my animals i currently own i feed as close to nature as i can. Dogs are on raw meat. Birds eat fruits and nuts. etc.

I have no problems with your ideas (except cichlid population density). Blackwater biotopes, however, are nothing like what you are planning. Most have no living plants at all, only a layer of dead leaves and wood. In addition, none of the species of Rams is truly a blackwater species. These fish come from seasonally variable biotopes where the water can be anything from white- to clearwater. They certainly don't need/appreciate water with low acidity or large quantities of tanins. Your planned tank would be excellent as a whitewater biotope, with lots of plants.

Thanks for the info. =D

 

[Kaie]

Got some of my supplies.

For a stand, i just got some concrete blocks used for decks and such.

The tank is going between a couch and a window. It'll be 'tucked' away, so the ugliness of the blocks doesnt matter. Im waiting for my female to get home to see if she wants to throw some fabric over the top of the bricks to spruce it up.

I also decided to go cheap and get some silica sand. I know i said im doing a biotope, and i also realize the substrate in the amazon is dark. But my local LFS wants $40 a sack of flourite... RIDICULOUS.

Let me know if this image is huge. It shows me that its resized and then you have to click to enlarge. But that might be a feature of chrome not the forum software.

 

[Kaie]

Now the cycle process begins.........

 

[Kaie]

I'm not cycling per se, since i took an established filter from another tank. I'm just keeping an eye on the water parameters... I put straight unconditioned tap water in the tank to see how the bacteria colony would handle the chloramine that is in our local tap.

Today things are looking up.
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrate: 5ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
pH: 7.0

Next step is background... i think im just going to do black latex paint. I cant find that 'vinyl'. Then get some bogwood and plants to drive that pH down.

Bogwood situation is on hold sort of since we had somewhat of a snow storm so i cant wonder the lakes and beaches looking for the perfect pieces.

Anyone have any info on getting ahold of these indian almond leaves that are apparently good at releasing tannins/nutrients into the water?

Or what types of local north american leaves, trees, and bark are fish safe.

 

[Mike Wise]

You don't mention where you live or how soft your water is. Any of the tannin releasing leaves won't help much in very hard water. Make a web search on Indian Almond Leaves. It should bring up several places that sell them. In North America (depending on where you live) oak and beech leaves work well - as do alder cones.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I'm not cycling per se, since i took an established filter from another tank. I'm just keeping an eye on the water parameters... I put straight unconditioned tap water in the tank to see how the bacteria colony would handle the chloramine that is in our local tap.

I'm quite worried now and I'd definitely council some caution, you can't really afford to put water with chloramine into the tank with the Apistogramma in it. The test kits are only suitable for measuring ammonia during cycling, ammonia is toxic at very low levels that the test kit cannot measure. Actually even with lab grade ion selective electrodes it is very difficult to measure ammonia meaningfully, and if you are a scientist interested in water quality you would use a combination of 4 day BOD and a biotic index. Even small, sub-lethal amounts of ammonia will lead to fish stress and damage. I think you have 3 options:

1. Treat your tap water with a water conditioner like "Prime" or "Amquel" that has sodium thiosulphate, hydromethane sulfinate and EDTA in the ingredient list. These work by ammonia's reaction with hydroxymethanesulfonate to form product aminomethanesulfonate. The other issue is that a water conditioner like "Prime" or "Amquel" will bind the ammonia and de-activate it, but it will still measure on the test kit.

2. Pre-filter the water for water changes with a plant filter, plants preferentially take up ammonia as their nitrogen source. Terrestrial plants have a much higher potential growth and nitrogen assimilation rates due to their access to atmospheric CO2.

3. Find an alternative water supply, either by using RO/HMA filters on your tap water or another water source (I use rain water). This is also an option if your tap water is hard, HMA filters will remove chloramine etc. but it is only by using a RO filter that you can reduce hardness and TDS. As Mike says humic compounds will exchange H+ ions for Ca2+ ions, but in hard water the excess of Ca2+ ions will mean those exchange sites will soon be filled without much softening effect on the water.

The same with the cycling, although your filter is cycled and you can potentially add the fish straight in, it would be better to wait a little while for plant growth to establish in the tank, and the tank microbial "flora" to stabilise before adding your fish.

You are really after stable, clean water more than anything else.

cheers Darrel