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what I see at the microscope.

Karin

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
153
Location
Buenos Aires
Hi all!

I did the levamisol treatment. Anyway I lose the female#2, it was already to late for her clearly. She refused to eat when I noticed trouble and was starting to bloat. In order to save female#1 that seems healthy (although I am suspicious) I started metronidazol 24hs by now soaking her food. She was kind of weird as she refuses/spits the flakes (she usually eats that perfectly) but eagerly eats Grindal which I freshly soaked in met and offered in small servings several times. She started to poo after that, white slim faeces, and then more blobby faeces. Here is a picture of what I see now at a home microscope (300X). No staining. No movements. Can you tell?
 

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rr16

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
536
To be honest I have no idea, but then never looked at many fish faecal smears. Do you have size measurements? The long, thin things look like they could be some kind of nematode or larval nematode with a gut going through them, however, without sizes and probably looking at them closely on a microscope I couldn't tell. Also, is there a chance they could just be something that was in their food? Don't know how much experience you have with faacal smears, could be much more than me (and mine was a long time ago), but there are often lots of random things in faecal smears that "could" be something and turn out to be food items or random other things.
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
Are these photos of material you dissected out of the intestine, or feces that were already excreted outside the fish that you collected from the aquarium? Lots of protozoa, rotifers, and tiny worms immediately gather on excreted feces, just like flies and beetles on cow patties. Assuming this is material you dissected out of the intestine, the wormy-looking things might be worms or large worm-shaped protozoa that she ate, or parasites, or harmless "normal" protozoa or worms that live in fish intestines. (Grindalworm cultures usually have nematodes growing in them too). Sorry I don't know more. Does your microscope have a scale and can you tell approximately how long these things are? Nice photos BTW!
 

Karin

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
153
Location
Buenos Aires
Hi Gerald, hi rr16! Thanks for replying. Gerald, I wasn't brave enough to euthanized my fish... so when I found her dead it was too late. Anyway, this is a faecal sample I took from the other female, which is still looking healthy (although I was suspicious because of her behaviour and her poo). I just waited for the sample to fall from her anus... (nice activity for a sunday afternoon) and took it with the help of a tweezer. I did the smear immediately, my first one by the way. At home with a small microscope. Just like that...So, I will continue feeding her with metronidazol soaked grindals (she is refusing the flakes (?)) and wait before putting my new male in that tank... The photos were taken with my small digital camera haha! no idea of scales or measures. just 300X . Thanks for your help!! Even though we cannot conclude on a certain diagnoses we are learning and having fun. May be we could help other fish in the near future.
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
Exactly - practice examination techniques, get familiar with what "normal" looks like so we can recognize when something is not normal, and eventually it may help us to diagnose and cure disease problems. I've really got to admire someone who can watch patiently for fish poop to fall, and then have "fun" with it!

Even though we cannot conclude on a certain diagnoses we are learning and having fun. May be we could help other fish in the near future.
 

Karin

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
153
Location
Buenos Aires
Well…it sounds kind of creepy! I am not exactly having fun right now… I would certainly feel better if I could save my cac ladies, but I can see the second one is also not going to make it and I have no idea of what is wrong. She is now standing there and I saw her flipping to one of her sides twice as if she isn’t able to stay in position. I am not medicating any more. I think I will rebuild the whole tank, changing even the substrate as I don’t know what is going on in there. Anyway thank you for “admiring” haha… I am just very curious and stubborn! Hate to lose my fish!

I've really got to admire someone who can watch patiently for fish poop to fall, and then have "fun" with it!
 

rr16

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
536
I find looking at faeces under a microscope quite fascinating, but then my facebook profile pic is of me removing a faecal sample from a dog's rectum! I guess I'm a little weird! I spent my undergraduate final project looking at dog and lion faeces (and the odd mongoose and bat-eared fox?) from the Serengeti and Ngorogoro Crater. Paid no attention to protozoan cysts though but found lots of helminth eggs, adults and some larvae I think in there!
 

Larry Rogers

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
91
I see two culprits in the smears. There are also two mysteries. The first five slides all show a flatworm of some type, likely a type of fluke. Greater magnification would be required to identify but one end appears disc-like, which usually means scolex, which means parasite. The fifth slide shows several ascarid worms, also parasitic. In addition most of the slides show some type of egg cyst, likely the flatworms; and the forth slide clearly shows a sac open at one end discharging its contents, which is some type of cyst, could be worms or bacterial; appears far too large to be viral.
 

Karin

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
153
Location
Buenos Aires
Hi Larry, thanks for the reply. I also think that may be there are some worms on the smears. Parasitic aswell, as you said? I am not that sure anyway out of these pictures (kind of out of focus and refringency problems here and there, some dirt) about the cysts... I cannot tell.

Cheers
 

Larry Rogers

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
91
Hi Larry, thanks for the reply. I also think that may be there are some worms on the smears. Parasitic aswell, as you said? I am not that sure anyway out of these pictures (kind of out of focus and refringency problems here and there, some dirt) about the cysts... I cannot tell.

Cheers
I have done a good many autopsies on fish . Fecal smrsts can be a good diagnostic tool to avoid the autopsies.
 

Karin

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
153
Location
Buenos Aires
Hi again Larry, thanks for your answer. So in your opinion are the pictures good enough to diagnose? That is good to hear/read! In that case which treatment would have been of your choice? I wish to avoid dead fish!
 

Larry Rogers

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
91
Karin your boo says you are a biologist, what feild of study?
Hi again Larry, thanks for your answer. So in your opinion are the pictures good enough to diagnose? That is good to hear/read! In that case which treatment would have been of your choice? I wish to avoid dead fish!
With as many worms present in early larval stages,and the cysts saving the individuals may have been impossible. It is a good bet that you should still treat the tank for worms to prevent further losses. Further research suggests that the spore sac may be ich and the flatworm flukes are monogenetic tremstodes, primarily parasites in the gills and on skin though some types do infest the gut. Ascarids appear to be immature threadworms. With this much infestation I would break down the tank and sterilize. Place the fish in a bare tank and treat for worms with formalin and acriflavine. Primarily the acriflavine prevents secondary infections by bacteria an fungi. Keep fish isolated three weeks an go through complete treatment regimen before returning to tank. Lose any decorations that are porous and cannot be sterilized and replace them. Anything that can be sterilized gets bleached overnight and then cleaned an de-chlorinated. Reset the tank, dose with de-chlorination agent and let it run two or three days before returning fish. Many people wind up with recurring infestations because they forget to sterilize filter components. It is radical therapy but it works best.
 

Karin

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
153
Location
Buenos Aires
Hi Larry, good info, thanks! I already did the resetting more than a month ago. The fish (the cac females) died so I even changed substrate and plants. I haven’t sterilized the filter though. I have three hatchets for the moment and some Cnesteredon descemaculatus (which I´ll fish out eventually, I am pretty sure by now that they could perfectly eat fry). The tank is running ok since then. I will get a new cac female sometime in the near future as I have a beautiful male in a different tank. I hope not to have any more troubles.

Yes, I am a biologist. I work at a pharmaceutical lab, in research. I am actually working in a human dermatological model o UV and photoaging. Work with human stem cells and so. Love animals and plants though…from always. Cheers!
 

Larry Rogers

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
91
Hi Larry, good info, thanks! I already did the resetting more than a month ago. The fish (the cac females) died so I even changed substrate and plants. I haven’t sterilized the filter though. I have three hatchets for the moment and some Cnesteredon descemaculatus (which I´ll fish out eventually, I am pretty sure by now that they could perfectly eat fry). The tank is running ok since then. I will get a new cac female sometime in the near future as I have a beautiful male in a different tank. I hope not to have any more troubles.

Yes, I am a biologist. I work at a pharmaceutical lab, in research. I am actually working in a human dermatological model o UV and photoaging. Work with human stem cells and so. Love animals and plants though…from always. Cheers!
There is a book,published in1989 in the US by Tropical Fish Hobbyist. It is a translation of Dieter Untergasser's Handbook of Fish Diseases. It is an excellent tool for identification and treatment of Fish Diseases.
 

Larry Rogers

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
91
My father was a biology teac
Hi Larry, good info, thanks! I already did the resetting more than a month ago. The fish (the cac females) died so I even changed substrate and plants. I haven’t sterilized the filter though. I have three hatchets for the moment and some Cnesteredon descemaculatus (which I´ll fish out eventually, I am pretty sure by now that they could perfectly eat fry). The tank is running ok since then. I will get a new cac female sometime in the near future as I have a beautiful male in a different tank. I hope not to have any more troubles.

Yes, I am a biologist. I work at a pharmaceutical lab, in research. I am actually working in a human dermatological model o UV and photoaging. Work with human stem cells and so. Love animals and plants though…from always. Cheers!
My father was a biology teacher and I started in biology at 4 years of age. Got dis-heartened in college and never bothered with a degree. I have always maintained a personal lab and have been breeding fish since I was 12, 763 species to date. I am also an avid fisherman but release most of what I catch. I am an amateur naturalist and study environmental breakdowns extensively. Studying the biologies of the natural habitats of Fish species has been every helpful in breeding.
 

rr16

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
536
What makes you think they are trematodes? Trematodes don't have a scolex and it doesn't appear obvious on the picture anyway. Also the images in 1-5 appear to have a structure running the length of the object which may be some kind of gut - trematodes have blind-ended guts and cestodes have no guts. The objects all appear to have a hook shape at one end which suggests they are probably a more rigid structure with a fixed shape as opposed to a more flexible soft body of a helminth. There are loads of things that can show up in fecal samples that are not of parasitic origin. I'm not saying they aren't parasites, however I find it hard to accept your confidence in giving a positive identification with no idea of size. To be honest, if the other objects are protozoan cysts, then they are likely too small to be trematodes. As for the nematodes on the last slide - again, not convinced as the shape is long and straightish and I've very rarely found a nematode straight like that in a faecal sample.
 

rr16

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
536
Actually I'll retract what I said about the nematodes (last pic) at the end, however, as they could be larvae. The rounded shape at one end does resemble the head end of hookworms
 

Larry Rogers

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
91
What makes you think they are trematodes? Trematodes don't have a scolex and it doesn't appear obvious on the picture anyway. Also the images in 1-5 appear to have a structure running the length of the object which may be some kind of gut - trematodes have blind-ended guts and cestodes have no guts. The objects all appear to have a hook shape at one end which suggests they are probably a more rigid structure with a fixed shape as opposed to a more flexible soft body of a helminth. There are loads of things that can show up in fecal samples that are not of parasitic origin. I'm not saying they aren't parasites, however I find it hard to accept your confidence in giving a positive identification with no idea of size. To be honest, if the other objects are protozoan cysts, then they are likely too small to be trematodes. As for the nematodes on the last slide - again, not convinced as the shape is long and straightish and I've very rarely found a nematode straight like that in a faecal sample.
Dactylogyridae and gyrodactylidae are monogenetic trematodes with complete guts. Both have incompletely developed scolex that appeats somewhat disc shaped undet lower magnifications. And gut may appear to run length of body in an unstained slide and not show some structures. Still it is kust a guess from what shows on the slide.
 

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