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Un"enhanced" apistos don't sell?????

chris1932

Apisto Club
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
357
Location
Spring Grove PA USA
I am going to go on a rant here because I am dissapointed in general with breeding Apistogramma. Its not that I dont enjoy it. I love watching parenting and brood care of any fish. What gets me is why the really interisting fish just dont sell. I have thirtysome types of Apistos, out of those fish only five types sell with any regularity.
I dont want to sound 'uppity' but there are alot of fish "norberti, atahualpa, eremynopyge, trifasciata, hoignei" that man hasnt messed with that are really nice and dont cost a fortune. Mother nature made them the way they are for a reason. I guess its the same with discus. People would rather have a swimming bloodshot eye than red spotted green. I will never get it.
I guess as long as triple red cacatuoides keep paying the electric and feed bills I cant complain to much, but I am.

Wheew
I feel much better now
 

a.d.wood

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
264
Location
Staffordshire, UK
Hi Chris,

That's my experience in the UK as well (and I'm sure the world over), you have this wonderful variety of fish available in the fish house and 90% of the enquiries (and sales!!!) are for red or orange Cac's and (pick your own colour!!) Aggie's.

As you said though, as long as they keep selling at least it funds our interest in the wilds!!

Andrew
 

jase101

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
31
Location
sydney, australia
um - surely this is because most sites, books etc recommend cacs and agies for beginners and people who maybe aren't so 'dedicated' to the species want fish that will live in community tanks etc? not defending them, but they may not even know about the other species...
 

jose_vogel

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
317
Location
Argentina
In my country, there is a sentence, very common among experienced aquarists, which says:
"If it's orange or red and swims, it sells"

And I agree with the advice given by Andrew
 

Evan

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
69
Location
Austin, TX
um - surely this is because most sites, books etc recommend cacs and agies for beginners and people who maybe aren't so 'dedicated' to the species want fish that will live in community tanks etc? not defending them, but they may not even know about the other species...

Truthfully, I don't think so. I think it is because people want colorful fish. Where I live there are specialty fish stores which specialize in cichlids and rare fish. Even when I am just trying to trade fish for pennies on the dollar many times they will ask me if it is colorful. If it isn't they don't want it.

Because of this, for most of my apistos I either end up passing on the breeding stock once I have a couple of successful spawns or placing them in a display tank where the fry will not survive. I just have nothing to do with the young. Without being willing to ship I literally have trouble giving them away.
 

a.d.wood

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
264
Location
Staffordshire, UK
......I just have nothing to do with the young. Without being willing to ship I literally have trouble giving them away.

This is not just limited to our Apisto's, I have some friends who succesfully breed some of the Madagascan cichlids, in particular some of the beautiful Paretroplus species. As an addicted cichlidphile, I know the value of these fish (not monetary, but their importance in conservation), however nobody is interested in them, shops don't want to tie tanks up with them, they can't even give the juveniles away......

Andrew
 

a.d.wood

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
264
Location
Staffordshire, UK
um - surely this is because most sites, books etc recommend cacs and agies for beginners and people who maybe aren't so 'dedicated' to the species want fish that will live in community tanks etc? not defending them, but they may not even know about the other species...

Sorry, that certainly isn't the case. People find me (either directly or by recommendation) because they have set out looking for Apisto's. You spend time explaining about (and showing) the 'cracking' selection of wild type apistos you have available and discussing how best they can look after them. In the end, they leave pleased as punch with their pair of Orange flash cac's..... (having ignored everything you've said:confused: ).

Andrew
 

bigbird

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
593
Location
Sydney, NSW Australia
Gday,
I agree with a lot of comments, however there is a two part twist to this.

1. We who know how great these fish are, aim to get the rarest and hardest to breed dwarfs, as we know how much fun, challenging and absolute joy they bring us if we succeed and we share this in the forum etc.

2. The others are just aquarium buffs, who look for colour and shape. Lets face it, most of the time these people just want a colourful fish in their community tank and rarely set out to breed the dwarfs.

there is nothing wrong with either, but as they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

My personal view is, give me the rarest apisto and hardest to breed, I still love their individual colour and I know that it also helps the conservation down the track. cheers from downunder jk :biggrin:
 

mummymonkey

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
185
Location
Blairgowrie (UK)
Had similar issues with pelvicachromis species also. I've had bags of taeniatus and subocellatus in auctions that went for less than pulchers. Similarly with corydoras; I can hardly give my concolor away but panda get snapped up.
The only guaranteed good sellers are rams, panda corys, red platys and bristlenose plecs.
 

ACRyun

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
16
Unfortunately this type of thing is a problem all around with animals... I volunteer at a dog sanctuary and we have had countless cute little light colored dogs adopt out time and again staying maybe a week, but the same larger black or brown dogs have been out there waiting for years! I don't breed fish but I can understand your frustration... We have some wonderful well mannered dogs, but if they are big and dark colored, they are pretty much going to live their life at the sanctuary, and the smaller breeds can have the worst personality and attitude, and be adopted....

Maybe off topic, but I hear ya! :rolleyes:
 

illumnae

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
68
This is the reason i can't get much choice of other species than the common ones here. The LFS stocks up what is popular, and the rest have to be imported/brought in from Taiwan or Hong Kong, where the hobbyists are more discerning and/or adventurous :(
 

jase101

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
31
Location
sydney, australia
interesting. it's such a shame that people have been 'blinded' to subtlety - surely each of the apistos is gorgeous in it's own right - if only you take the time to appreciate it, feed it and keep it well. i actually prefer female apistos in good health to males, as i think the composition of their patterning is superb. but as with most things in this modern world, gaudy beats subtlety hands-down.

i also think sparrows are gorgeous.
 

Alex.

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
15
As a complete beginner with apistos (and fishkeeping), I decided to go for cacatuoides like most do.

However, it wasn't solely for the bright colouration, but they're far more available than many other rarer/more subtle fish, there is far more information about them on the internet (which is great for a beginner like me) and they're meant to be one of the easiest apistogrammas to spawn.

Of course, if I had more experience I'd go for something more 'oddball', but for now the cacatuoides suit me fine. I did look at A. Eunotus, but the £40 price tag for a proven breeding pair was a bit too much for me...
 

ste12000

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
619
Location
Cheshire..UK
Jeepers!

At least Im not the only one.


Far from it Chris..I think we all suffer from this and for quite a few good reasons..
1. The more specialist stuff eg.Wild caught. is not often seen for sale at local shops..Between three shops within 10 miles away of my home only one stocks Apistogramma with any regularity,Yep you guessed it, Aggies, cacs and maybe some Hongsloi. This shop sells them at silly prices, £30 per pair of cacs!!! Obviously none sell, the shop gets fed up stocking them and refuses to tie up a valuble tank for 6-7 months at a time. Thus stopping people from aquiring these fish.
2. On the subject of high prices, while i understand that the fully grown and coloured fish have been lovingly raised for well over 6 months, upto a year old for fully grown and coloured fish that i have seen for sale. The average buyer does not understand that the breeder has to make a return on his time and tankspace and thus the high price.
3. As someone has already said, Agies and Cacs are often recommended for beginners. These are the fish that people seek and they often have no idea that there are 100's more species to try.
4. I joined a fishclub, attended auctions and met and started freindships with other dwarf cichlid fans...So far there is a group of 5-10 in the UK that i know of that are truly serious about these fish...I have yet to meet someone that will visit my fishroom and be able to recognise the species that i keep without an explanation..The vast majority buy Kribs for a community tank and then ask where all the colourful fish are!!! AAAARRRRGGGG
5. Keeping and breeding Apistogramma is not about making money..I dont know anyone who does or has retired early due to breeding Apistogramma, i have numerous tanks that have been tied up for 6-8 months and not produced much due to various factors, eaten clutchs, small clutches, tiny broods..Aggression between pairs ect ect ect........I would of made more money by breeding Guppies.
Due to the tightening of worldwide finances my fishroom really needs to pay for itself and if it makes spare cash to help feed, clothe and educate my children then thats great..I am now branching into a few groups of fish that pay the bills and take room that would of been solely for Apistogramma...I even own a pair of Albino Kribs!!!!! How sad :mad:
 

z0phi3l

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
3
Location
Highspire, PA
Some of you have it made, every time I consider setting up a tank again, all I can find are Rams, or I can go a bit farther to That Fish Place for some Cacs or maybe something else a bit more exotic and out of my "range", so I get discouraged and give up.


I'm moving to CT soon it seems and once settled in I'll try again there, but as long as they are Apistos, I really don't care for "Colorfulness" :)
 

Bev N

Apisto Club
5 Year Member
Messages
159
Location
York, PA
Hey z0phi3l...just head over to Lancaster next Sunday the 5th for the Aquarium Club of Lancaster's swap meet. There will be apistos there for sure. I'm not sure what all types but I know I'm going to be taking some of those colorful ones and some not so colorful. I don't think I'm allowed to post the web site but if you pm me I can give it to you.

On the subject of wild versus man made....

While I think that many of the wild fish are beautiful fish they are not what the average aquarist with a community tank is going to appreciate. If your talking breeding for profit than you have to be willing to breed what is profitable. I have a few tanks of F1 Inirida that I think are stunning. I couldn't for anything sell those to That Fish place. They would sit in their tanks and die of old age. In all honestly it's been virtually impossible to market apistos there at all and I believe it's been to negative experiences they have had. I've seen some apistos there. They always look horrid. There was one of the former discus tanks there with borellii opal that were tiny and gray. I would not have sold them anything that small. While an apisto collector would be happy with them at that size knowing what they will grow into the average buyer at a large LFS very often won't. They may still be there as far as I know.

I realize it takes more time to get them to a nice size where they are showing their potential but it's worth the wait. As a breeder it does me no good to sell anything that is less that prime to an LFS as I won't get repeat orders.

Marketing some of the apistos is far more difficult that breeding them but it's not impossible. There are other venues that we need to search out such as this site and some of the auctions sites where we can target hobbyist with specific wish list. If we are successful in marketing the more popular apistos than it can easily support our desire to obtain and breed the more difficult and rare species. My very colorful apistos paid for a group of I. Adoketa that I really really wanted. Now if I am successful this is another one I won't be able to sell to many of the LFS in my area. But that is just fine. I think they are beautiful fish and I enjoy just watching them. I do have two that have paired up and two more that I think are starting to so wish me luck!

While I have some very colorful apistos, discus and angelfish my very favorite tank in my house is the one that houses my wild angelfish. They, in my opinion, are stunning but it's the koi, dd black, sunsets, etc that pay the bills.

Bev
 

fishme.

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
88
Location
Athens Greece
i have the same problem

at start i used to give my fish for no money but guess what none wants any

i am raising F2 fry from masken and none wants them even for free :eek:
i really have changed my mind now as they did not apreciate giving fish that costed to me for free

so from now on i will sell everything even if i give only one fish

what is really sad is that i will set up a tank for captive bred discus with unnaturall colours and maybe a labidochromis caeruleus and pseudotropheus acei tank as it seems that these are the only fish that the greek hobbyists apreciate - i have to get some feedback don't you think ?

i really can't understand why people always want the same fish , don't they get bored of it ?
 

Zack Wilson

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
102
Location
Saint Paul, MN
I'm actually surprised by this thread, though admittedly there are relatively few expressing this sentiment here.

If asked, I would have said just the opposite. Of course, this applies to how I move fish on a whole. In any local market, I would say folks are generally correct. Apistos are not mainstream fish. If pet stores stocked the "exotic" species regularly and made them readily available, they wouldn't be what they are to us. There are always going to be the connoisseur level fish. If apistos became common, there would be something else. It's part of what drives us.

I think it's partly correct that because species like cacatuiodes are adaptable and colorful, they are going to attract attention from the unitiated. They will appeal to a wider mass of people. Books also push this, for good reason. How are you going to get a non apistophile started? Are you going to push elizabethae, or paucisquamis? I hope not. That's for later. I adoketa is a special project, not run-of-the-mill fish. Would adoketa be as attractive to you if everyone in the aquarium society was passing them around like convicts?

Pet stores push the limits for stocking and generalization. They just can't always get away with the exotic stuff. Why lament it? And don't be so quick to look down on cacatuoides and agassizi. I still keep them and enjoy them. They are pretty.

Now, aside from the local, limited market/demographic, I find the total opposite. While I may sell more cacatuiodes than others to local stores, it is the exotics that make me the real money and move the fastest for me. By far. I sell eremnopyge faster than I can breed them. Always getting emails asking when the candidi and maculatus will be ready. Baenschi, elizabethae, maulbruter, wilhelmi, papagei will sell 3 to 1 over the cacatuoides on my list. You have to have the right exotics. It takes popularity to make something sell. That's just plain old sense. Not every fish out of the dozens of apistos is going to be equally as popular. Find the right ones, and they will sell. If they aren't your cup of tea, that's okay. Of course, some of those fish that don't sell as well are very difficult to breed, let alone get. If you can't multiply them regularly, how are they going to sell and be popular? I don't know of anyone in the US producing any quantities of diplotaenia, do you? (email me if you do). I was breeding them pretty well back in the late 90's, and every one I bred was spoken for before they were ready. I got out of fishkeeping for a few years and since I came back I haven't been able to track any more captive stock down. Of all of the fish I distributed, no one seems to still have any going. If you can't keep them alive, they are not going to become popular. Heck, of the borellii and cacatuoides and masses of agassizi I've sold I bet only a small percentage ever even produced new generations, and that's the "easy" stuff.

I think it only makes sense that in a local store, even one that specializes in the exotic, the fish they are going to stock are going to be the ones that are most readily bred and therefore available, and most likely to produce success (=happy customers). They can't stay in business trying to cater to us, the minor fraction of a percentage of the fisheepers who love dwarfs with a passion and only want the exotic. And we choose our demographic, who we sell to. If you find the right audience, you can sell your fish and at reasonable price and rate.
 

Troglodyte

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
7
two sides to all stories

I can understand this from both sides of the issue. I used to own a shop and when you got rare fish in they took ages to move. This meant that your tank was held up with specialist fish requiring specific water conditions, that needed to be sold but were very slow in moving. This was due to the expensive cost of getting them to your shop and putting some mark up on them.So when the buyers came in they would be happy to see the fish but a little more reluctant to part with their cash and take fish that they had no room for in their setups. Some would prefer to wait a couple of weeks to see if the fish filled out and was actually what they were claiming to be.(Let's not forget there are a lot of misidentified fish out there especially in Apisto's)
Once these specialists were happy with the identification they would generally find the room and purchase the fish but it still took time. In a business this means potentially losing profit/turnover.
However now that I am on the other side as a punter. I can never find the fishshop that is prepared to take the risks as a whole.(especially without first having to put in multiple requests) Even then it is a never ending wait to see that the rare fish they have got you is Apisto Aggassizi or Cac.(Not that there is anything wrong in this fish but it wa not the one ordered) A lot of LFS do not have the access to the right sources. Hence when many people tour shops to find the rarer fish marked as Apisto Aggassizi which may turn in to a wee gem that is mislabled. I have visited lots of fish shops in England/UK and all the good ones when I lived in Scotland. While there are shops out there to suit all, the specialist one, is one which is few and far between.:frown:
We also need to keep in mind that over time familiarity with the species and breeders successes will bring the fish to the masses, I keep getting told that they use to pay a weeks wages for a cobra guppy or was it a months wages, not old enough to remember:rolleyes: :tongue:
 

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