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2 I.Ds Please

Peter Lovett1

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5 Year Member
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179
Location
High Wycombe England
The 2 fish come came in from Peru one came in as aff juruensis and the other was a by catch and i hope i have a pair.

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KenL

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5 Year Member
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146
Peter,
How many specimens have you posted pictures of?

It looks to me that you have posted pics of more than one species.

The male with the clear zig-zag markings below the lateral line looks what I thought was juruensis.

The fish in the last pic looks a totally different species to me.
 

Mike Wise

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Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Well, the cacatuoides-group species certainly isn't A. sp. Schwarzkinn/Black-chinn. The chin marking is not large enough. To me it looks like a wild A. cacatuoides (no distinct caudal spot separated from the later band). It certainly isn't the color morph typically shipped from around Iquitos. I would really need to see better photos of the caudal peduncle that distinctly show the black markings.

The regani-group species looks cruzi-like (eunotus-complex) and based on the shape of the caudal spot, I would guess that it is a color morph of A. sp. Nanay/Melgar. This species seems to come in slighly different color morphs.
 

Peter Lovett1

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High Wycombe England
Thanks mike,

I was thought that cacatuoides does not show only ever show striping in the lower half of the caudal fin this fish is completely striped including the female when she is really mad. However you are right that there is not a clear break betwean the lateral line and the caudel spot. However the lateral line does not run into the caudel spot but tapers ou too it. I will see if i have a pic that shows it well.
 

Arcadianred

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5 Year Member
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61
Location
Guisborough. UK
Hi Peter,

Is this the same group of fish that Microman (Mark) had a male from which had a clear break of the lateral line before the caudal? Whichever the fish is they look excellent specimens - I much prefer the wild cacas over the brighter domesticated stuff.

Mark
 

pjvtrash

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5 Year Member
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30
I'm confused, do cacatuoides normally show a distinct break before the caudal spot? It seems to me that the females I have now definitely do show a distinct caudal spot. In looking back over pictures of females that I've had in the past, though, they don't necessarily show that break. There is definitely a narrowing of the band, but not necessarily a break. My males all show a lateral stripe that ends before the caudal fin. Is there a difference?
 

Peter Lovett1

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5 Year Member
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Location
High Wycombe England
Hi Arcadianre,

Yes they are from the same group of fish as Mark's.

I have the privilege of being able to watch these fish and not just look at photos of them. This is my opinion but this fish is not A. cacatuoides, "Black-chin" or A. luelingi. Cant comment on A. juruensis as i have never seen one. However if we take the lateral line and caudal spot as the only diagnostic trait then the fish is a cacatuoides. However if you look closely the lateral line runs in above the caudal spot and only joins at the top of caudel spot with one scale.
 

lab

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168
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Copenhagen, Denmark
I also find it interesting that the female shows a lateral spot and not a lateral line in threat display...

No matter what they are, they are very nice fish.
 

Mike Wise

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A. cacatuoides - or what is considered A. cacatuoides - has a rather wide (and widely unrecognized) distribution. The species has been found from Pucallpa, Peru to the mouth of the Rio Madeira in Brazil. There is some variation in features over this wide range.

However if you look closely the lateral line runs in above the caudal spot and only joins at the top of caudel spot with one scale.

This feature is seen mostly on forms from the Brazilian Amazon (see A202, A. cf. cacatuoides (Putumayo) & A203, A. cf. cacatuoides (Manacapuru) in the DATZ book). Obviously the caudal pattern is different from the Manacapuru form, but quite close to the Putumayo form.

I'm confused, do cacatuoides normally show a distinct break before the caudal spot? It seems to me that the females I have now definitely do show a distinct caudal spot.

I also find it interesting that the female shows a lateral spot and not a lateral line in threat display.

Is this the same group of fish that Microman (Mark) had a male from which had a clear break of the lateral line before the caudal?

A cacatuoides never has a distinct break befor the caudal spot. Often it is very pale, but still visible. I have mistaken A. cacatuoides for A. juruensis in the past because at times only a narrow pale grey line occurs at the base of the caudal fin and then widens inside the fin. This usually occurs when viewed in holding tanks where they tend to pale out. Once they become comfortable, one can see the continuous band, although narrow and pale. This is something to look for in your fish once they are completely settled in. On A. sp. Schwarzkinn & A. juruensis the caudal spot is separated by what looks like a whitish band that crosses the entire height of the caudal peduncle in front of the base of the caudal fin. When seen on A. cacatuoides this band seems to "pinch" inward at the middle.

The female in Peter's photos shows an atypical, but not unique, brood dress for female A. cacatuoides. Usually they retain at least part of the lateral band, but in full brood/aggression the band shrinks to only a lateral spot, sometimes with a tiny spot at the base of the fin.

The mouth doesn't look very big for a cacatuoides

The lips tend to get larger on males as they age. Compare them with those in the photo of a young wildcaught male, A200, p.89 of the DATZ book. The fish actually look similar to Peter's in many ways. It seems to even have the same caudal pattern.

I personally could be wrong, but I don't see anything that points to it being anything but A. cacatuoides, but as I originally said, it certainly isn't the color morph typically shipped from around Iquitos.
 

Arcadianred

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5 Year Member
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61
Location
Guisborough. UK
Peter/Mike,

I had looked through Datz late last night and thought that the fish might be A202 or A203 (mainly due to the fact there doesn't seem to be anything else in Datz bar the Juruensis that they looked like) I have to admit that the fish still doesn't look very cacatuoides like but I think this may be heavily influenced (in my case) by looking at the miriad of domestic caca strains that there are now - they really look like unrelated fish. Anyway as I said before Peter, I like the wild fish over the bright stuff and they look superb.

Mark
 

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