Treating dropsy ?

[anewbie]

One of my female hongsoli showed up with dropsy. It actually looks quite progressive which seems odd since she was fine 2 days ago. My thought was to put her in a 5 gallon pail with 3 gallons of water and almost 1 teaspoon of epson salt and a dose of furan-2. Is this a reasonable treatment ? Given the rate of the swelling i kind of doubt she willl make it but i figure i might as well as try since i have the material on hand - is this a decent treatment or would you suggest some other treatment ?
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The bigger question is why is this happening. The tank she is in is a 29 and the water quality is relatively clean - i do a 40% water change twice a week and generally make an effort to not over feed and keep this tank very clean. The nitrate level is well controlled (10ish maybe a wee bit lower). There is some flux in water temp by a couple of degree when i do water changes but i try to make it not too far off. She isn't that old - maybe 14 months old. The other fishes in the tank seem to be doing fine.

 

[MacZ]

Epsom salt is best used as a bath, but beware, it's also just a treatment of a symptom, not the cause. In principle it uses the osmotic pressure to remove water from the fish, which has collected in the body and tissue.

I doubt an antibiotic really works. Many antibiotics put a lot of strain on the kidneys and dropsy is basically the visual sign of a starting kidney failure. In recent years I've seen more fish die when treated with antibiotics than without.
If you are dead set on antibiotics do it in another container, not in the main tank. As dropsy is a sign of an opportunistic bacterial infection the other fish are not really in danger of contracting it.

You can try the waterchanges + acidic water treatment with extra alder cones and IALs. I had most success with that, but it also doesn't work every time.

 

[anewbie]

I'm not dead set but looking for suggestions. My treatment will be in a 5 gallon pail. In the morning when i do my wednesday water change i'll put the fish in a pail and do any treatment there with daily water changes. The idea of furan-2 came from a website that suggested it was a bacteria infection. I don't have anything that will make the water more acidic on hand and i doubt the fish has a week to live if i don't do anything - the bloat was quite rapid and the anal portion of the fish looks off.

 

[MacZ]

the anal portion of the fish looks off.

That made me immediately listen up! How? This could mean there is an internal parasite present.

The idea of furan-2 came from a website that suggested it was a bacteria infection.

Which is in principle not wrong, but it's one of those antibiotics most bacteria have become resistant against. Nitrofurazone is usually used fot external use anyway. With dropsy you have to get the antibiotic inside the fish somehow. Also just looked the stuff up to confirm it, yes it's known to be hard on the kidneys, so it will likely just speed the inevitable up.
Although it is also something that many strains of bacteria have become resistant against, can you get something that contains Erythromycin? If you go the antibiotic route, try this.

 

[anewbie]

That made me immediately listen up! How? This could mean there is an internal parasite present.



Which is in principle not wrong, but it's one of those antibiotics most bacteria have become resistant against. Nitrofurazone is usually used fot external use anyway. With dropsy you have to get the antibiotic inside the fish somehow. Also just looked the stuff up to confirm it, yes it's known to be hard on the kidneys, so it will likely just speed the inevitable up.
Although it is also something that many strains of bacteria have become resistant against, can you get something that contains Erythromycin? If you go the antibiotic route, try this.

API has a product but it is only available from smaller sellers which means it would take a while to get here - probably too long. I'll try to get a picture of her posture in an hour or so when lights are on in the tank.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

and the anal portion of the

If it looks swollen? It may be <"Camallanus worms">, they are unfortunately common in commercially bred Apistogramma. You get some swelling, as the fish loses condition, but before the worms are visible.

cheers Darrel

 

[anewbie]

Here is some pictures - to be honest i think she is so bloated that it is being pushed down. It could be a parasite but i've had the fish for nearly a year and nothing has been added to the tank for over 6 months. Also this is the tank that i take the most care to not cross contaminate with my other tanks - meaning i work on it first and wash the tubes before using on this tank. The fish was purchased around a year ago as a group of 4 when they were sub 1/4 inch long:

 

[anewbie]

One correction - i did add a plant about 4 weeks ago - i had purchased 3 plants from a private person and i put them in 3 different tanks. i've not noticed any issues in the other two tanks.

 

[MacZ]

Hi all,

If it looks swollen? It may be <"Camallanus worms">, they are unfortunately common in commercially bred Apistogramma. You get some swelling, as the fish loses condition, but before the worms are visible.

cheers Darrel

My thought, but I didn't want to say it before seeing the fish.

And now that I see it, yes, it could be camallanus. Levamisole, Praziquantel or Fubendazol can help. I prefer to use Sera Nematol (containing emamectin benzoate), as it is quite mild on the microbial balance of a tank. It can be problematic for livebearers, catfish and labyrinthfish though. So if you have one of those use one of the other meds, but be careful to get a product that only has one of the active ingredients and nothing else. Stay clear of broadband meds like Prazipro, as they are harsh on the whole system.

 

[anewbie]

Could that parasite had lived dormant in the tank all this time ? I won't treat her in the tank - i'll put her in a pail - sera nematol doesn't seem to be easy to get (amazon doens't sell it); ebay sells it but it ships from france.
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would any of these be suggested:
hikari prazipro (praziqueantel)
sachem paraguard - glutaral/malachite green

 

[MacZ]

I just realized Nematol isn't available in the US.

The others are combination formulas with other ingredients you neither need nor want. I have little knowledge what you can get in your country that only contains Prazi.

 

[anewbie]

fritz paracleanse look ok ? 250 mg metronidazole and 75 mg praziquantel which is combo
according to hikari webiste prazipro only active ingrediant is praziqueantel - are you seeing something else in the formulae ?
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THese are the only two i can find so between them which would you suggest or maybe just not treating her at all.
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Also do you think the parasite could have been in the tank all this time dormant ? I don't know anything about their cycle.

 

[MacZ]

fritz paracleanse look ok ? 250 mg metronidazole and 75 mg praziquantel which is combo

Then this is out.

according to hikari webiste prazipro only active ingrediant is praziqueantel - are you seeing something else in the formulae ?

Only Praziquantel? Then go for it. My info seems outdated, then.

Also do you think the parasite could have been in the tank all this time dormant ? I don't know anything about their cycle.

I don't think it was dormant in the tank, but in the fish.

 

[anewbie]

Then this is out.


Only Praziquantel? Then go for it. My info seems outdated, then.


I don't think it was dormant in the tank, but in the fish.

Ok thanks. I couldn't find a second ingrediant and i spent a while looking. They do warn that exact measurement will be required at the rate of 5ml per 20 gallons which means i need approx .75ml which will be difficult to measure so i'll probably end up overdosing a little. Hum 1/8 of a teaspoon is 0.625 ml which is enough for 2.5 gallons so i want the pail about 1/2 full.
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I'm still at a loss how it could be a parasite. The fish was tank bred and i've had it since it was pretty young - i did add some wild l204 to the tank around nov 5th so it has been around 6 months. wetspot claims they treat and qt all wild fishes before selling them but maybe not. Those were the last fish added to the tank. tank bred l204 are pretty uncommon.
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Anyway if she is still alive when the medicine arrives friday afternoon i'll start treating her friday night or saturday and see what happens. I am doubtful given her level of bloat but it was all quite fast and she is still active. Of course if it is really a parasite then i have to be concern about the rest of the tank.

 

[MacZ]

I'm still at a loss how it could be a parasite. The fish was tank bred and i've had it since it was pretty young - i did add some wild l204 to the tank around nov 5th so it has been around 6 months. wetspot claims they treat and qt all wild fishes before selling them but maybe not. Those were the last fish added to the tank. tank bred l204 are pretty uncommon.

As Darrel already noted above, Camallanus are quite common in tankbred dwarf cichlids, even from smaller breeders. That's mostly because the worms can be present and doing their thing inside a fish for weeks or even months without anyone noticing. It's rare this takes so long, but it happens.

Otherwise good luck! Hope the med arrives in time.

 

[anewbie]

Ok. I started treatment in a pail a few minutes ago. Should i add anything to the water besides prazipro - probably not from out earlier conversations. I do have furan-2 and epson salt as well as sodium salt.
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This also marks a time line and i'll see if she gets better. Btw that cockatoo we chatted about on fishlore a few months ago that i treated with furan-2 did make a recovery - and is still alive.

 

[MacZ]

Btw that cockatoo we chatted about on fishlore a few months ago that i treated with furan-2 did make a recovery - and is still alive.

Glad to here, though in all honesty:
You know how many threads I've been involved in on Fishlore? I have to admit my recollection of the case is all but present in my head. Hope you don't mind.

 

[anewbie]

@dw1305 and @MacZ - if this is the correct treatment how quickly should i see her respond ? Right now she is still actively swimming so there is time to try something else though she is also heavily pine-coned.

 

[MacZ]

2-3 days up to a week depending on how bad it is. After a week (at latest!) you should definitely remove the med with a big waterchange and filtering with activated carbon for 24 hours. I never had to do a second treatment immediately with that stuff, so this would be new territory for me, too. I only know a second treatment should be only started after about 2 days of close observation before deciding to do a second round.

 

[anewbie]

2-3 days up to a week depending on how bad it is. After a week (at latest!) you should definitely remove the med with a big waterchange and filtering with activated carbon for 24 hours. I never had to do a second treatment immediately with that stuff, so this would be new territory for me, too. I only know a second treatment should be only started after about 2 days of close observation before deciding to do a second round.

Ok. So if after 5 to 7 days she does not improve it is safe for me to assume it is not a parasite and something else and I'll refresh the water and start treating her with furan-2.